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Shuttleworth

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Shuttleworth says:

Legalise Wild Camping

Sorry if anyone else has already posted this, a petition has been raised with the government to legalise wild camping south of the border,

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/wildcamp/


petition



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CLOUDWALKER

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 00:47)
terrybnd

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terrybnd says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

:hmmm::dopeyhmmmm:

Not too sure about this....not had chance to read up about the reasons for this petition (without stating the obvious).

But Scotland...I can understand wild camping being legal etc. Big open country and all that.

Wales, I can imagine it being legalised.

But England? I dunno. Idiots etc I think would get the wrong idea. I can see a real possibility of tents on the wrong places and illegal raves/parties (well, they wouldn't be..)......I dunno.

For me, the legalities of it have never been a problem. But thats me and where I go. It's my care and interest. My passion. Images of litter in laybuys and the like come to mind if it became common knowledge with certain elements of our society. And lets not forget theres alot of people populating England. The attitude and culture is different.

I love Britain. I love the English nation etc don't get me wrong. But there always is a element to the English whereby they "milk" things abit and if it's bad the majority tend to "tolerate" it.

Mmmmmmmmm..:dopeyhmmmm:

http://terrybnd.blogspot.com/

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 01:52)
dharbott

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dharbott says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Terry - I'm with you on this.
We don't want to give a license to the pikeys

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 09:34)
simply

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Posts: 16

simply says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

i agree with terrybnd on this one, i think it would cause problems and cause land owners to be less tolerant than they are now, ive been camping around the south west for 20 years and have only been told to move off once and in fairness to the farmer we were quite a large group. i usualy go alone or in a pair, set camp at dusk and pack away at dawn so most of the time nobody knows im there anyway, but on the occasions when i have been seen by the farmer/landowner or other walkers they have either ignored me or come over for a chat, seen ive no bottles of cider or bongs lying around and have been fine,

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 09:55)
davidmc

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davidmc says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

I think for once it's a case of any publicity = bad publicity. 

I'm with Terry, dharbott & simply - keep the status quo & keep out of the news.  If it hits the papers/media we could end up with a load of chavs littering all sorts of places & spoiling everything for the rest of us responsible ones.

I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me......

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 11:23)
johnhee

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johnhee says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Valid points of course, but it still doesn't address the underlying issue. In most parts England and Wales wildcamping remains illegal.

Dartmoor is an excellent example of where there's both a sensible approach and positive publicity/encouragement from the local land management authorities. Then take a look at the Vixen Tor situation on the same area

http://walkaboutuk.blogspot.com/search/label/vixen%20tor

And I've no doubt that Dartmoor camping is subject to various abuses during the summer holiday period. But hasn't that always been the way society operates?

As you mentioned raves - the legal solution applied to that threatened to be highly damming to other legitimate outdoor gatherings.But it did get covered by law and you still w/camp in small groups.

Publicity? Too late - check the regular articles in  UK walking mags (and even such sources as The Guardian)

Underlying this current initiative is a wish to address the current situation more or less in line with the position in Scotland.

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 17:33)
MJB

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MJB says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

I have to agree with the majority, this would be very bad. Its all about common sense so no need for it to be legal IMHO.

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 18:29)
terrybnd

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terrybnd says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Thats a relief! Thought I'd be slated for having a boring old man's attitude, to coin a phrase.

I did think a bit about this today (bored at work) and thought maybe only National Parks should allow legal wild camping. But then I realised what a stupid idea!! That would only concentrate any problems in environmentally sensitive areas.

Places like Dartmoor I suppose would fit into that category above. But then again, it's not exactly publicised, is it? I didn't even know one could wild camp there legally until about a year ago!!:shock:

Aye, keep things as they are in England. Wales, I could go with for wild camping. But then I suppose thats up to them, too.:biggrin::biggrin:

http://terrybnd.blogspot.com/

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 18:48)
turtle

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Posts: 394

turtle says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Bad idea as far as i'm concerned.

More litter, fires (out of control) etc.

Never had a problem wild camping myself so no need to change.

Why do those behind the petition feel that change is necessary?

I work as a countryside warden/forester and would turn a blind eye to anyone camping discreetly. Think there would be many problems if law was changed, i'd probably spend more of my time picking up litter and poo etc than looking after the woods.

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 19:57)
j.p

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Posts: 337

j.p says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Terrybnd,
What do you mean you can imagine it in Wales but not in England?
All the best. john

[This Reply has been modified by the Author]

Were all only getting one go! you mite as well enjoy it.

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 20:04)
BikerFool

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Posts: 7270

BikerFool says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

I have to agree that legalising camping would be a baaaad idea for all the reasons stated above. 

It's not something I do/have done but I do park up the van and spend the night and will look about my spot to ensure the absense of any clues.  If all who currently wild camp take this option then all is well, legalising camping will (in the minds of some) remove the need to clear up.

Life is not a rehearsal

Live it, love it

Will try to help any who want information about Wirral

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 20:21)
DaveHarris

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DaveHarris says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

I agree with everyone else, what happens now works well. If you change it then it gets messy. I know i'm not regular hill walker, and only get to these lovely places a few times a year. But, i don't want to climb and see the same cr*p that litters the low country. I enjoy my bits of hill and fell walking and don't need it spoiled.

Local expert on Kent. Live for today. You never know what is around the corner.

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  • Posted 3 years ago (26 January 2008 22:00)
terrybnd

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terrybnd says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

john600cc!  

No offense intended, if you're Welsh.

I meant Wales in the same way as Scotland. Small population...large rural (arguably, wild so to speak) areas etc.

Wild camping in that respect would be quite suitable for Wales, if it was to be made legal. The attitude to the landscape and nature of Wales by the Welsh is such where this concept could work.

Just like in Scotland. Yes, there'll be the minority who will spoil and tarnish the name and image of the many. But in numbers and effect they would be small.

The English...numerically, rule. So, the effect of a minority causing ill effect from the legalising of wild camping would be more noticeable, so to speak. In England, no disrespect, the landscape and attitude is different etc. My points above relate to this.

It's for me, a case of "one glove" does not fit all!

Being English ( a true mongrel, I have to add!:winkie:) in birth etc I feel in no way, peculiar in my feelings on this subject.

It's just...well, the bloody English....would spoil it! Because of "idiots", shall I say? AND then some!!!!!:upset:

I think people get the idea of what I'm trying to say...putting it mildly! (Which isn't my style! But I can be courteous! :wink:)

http://terrybnd.blogspot.com/

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  • Posted 3 years ago (27 January 2008 01:49)
j.p

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Posts: 337

j.p says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Ok mate, thanx for getting back to me, yes I do see your point and I agree with it.
All the best.  John

Were all only getting one go! you mite as well enjoy it.

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  • Posted 3 years ago (27 January 2008 08:26)
markeason

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Posts: 102

markeason says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Add my name to the nay sayers.

Bad idea for the reasons stated by others, plus it would take a lot of the fun out of it :shock:

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  • Posted 3 years ago (27 January 2008 22:09)
HikerPunk

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Posts: 4914

HikerPunk says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

yep put my name down under the nae column n all.

agree with you on it taking the fun out of it markeason-whats life without the fun?

(hows trix mark? long time no hear)

Oi oi n out!

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  • Posted 3 years ago (27 January 2008 22:12)
titaniumdude

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titaniumdude says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Thanks for the heads up on this one Shuttleworth.  I've known of the Dartmoor stance on wild camping for many years (decades really) and have taken advantage of it many times.  The Dartmoor Ranger service encourages wild camping if the simple guidelines they lay down are adhered to and for the most part the system they have running works admireably.  The policy is well advertised, being freely available on the official national park website and also appears in the literature produced on behalf of the ranger service.  I guess the reason folks don't notice it is that we're so used to the rather different attitude of landowners south of the Scottish border.

Fact- It has worked on Dartmoor for a very long time and the policy is very well advertised (though of course not to the extent that anything creating revenue for individuals is advertised since it is , well, free). 

Think of it as a step forward for civil liberty and stop worrying about the demon minority that the press has convinced you lurk on every corner.

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/

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  • Posted 3 years ago (27 January 2008 22:37)
terrybnd

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terrybnd says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Good points there titaniumdude.

"Think of it as a step forward for civil liberty and stop worrying about the demon minority that the press has convinced you lurk on every corner."

Sorry mate. But what I read in the papers is real. I see it most days, unfortunately. In fact the media doesn't make enough fuss about that kind of thing I feel.

But it is this minority that I just know would spoil the party, so to speak. Make no doubt about it.

So, as much as I'd love to feel "happy" and "chill out" with more civil liberties. Sometimes I cannot help but think "What a f*****g liberty!" to errrr....civil liberties!:wink:

Theres nowt wrong with keeping things as they are really. I mean! Who really feels the need to petition this and why?

I mean that last question, by the way. I'm curious to others opinions. I've yet to be convinced to cast a vote in favour of legalising wild camping south of the border.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

http://terrybnd.blogspot.com/

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  • Posted 3 years ago (27 January 2008 23:12)
titaniumdude

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titaniumdude says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Yep it's human nature to retain the status quo I suppose if the status quo is working for you.

Terry said

"So, as much as I'd love to feel "happy" and "chill out" with more civil liberties. Sometimes I cannot help but think "What a f*****g liberty!" to errrr....civil liberties!:wink:"

 but remember that our present freedom of the hills is only enjoyed through the actions of folks willing to make sacrifice for our civil liberties.  Some of them were even >SHOCK< reported to be 'commies'.

Tery said

"I mean! Who really feels the need to petition this and why?"

I dunno! Maybe the Benny Rothman of wild camping.  It is easy to forget that the right to wander the hills is a 'privelage' that we have been allowed by the grace of the law.  There are still folks who'd like to see those rights removed now that so many folks clutter the hills and leave rubbish etc etc. 

When I saw the title to this thread and the number of replies I thought 'Hey there's gonna be some folks supporting the legalisation of wild camping in England'.  This is a hikers forum after all.  I was actually surprised to see that nearly every answer was against this despite the fact that they also claim to indulge in this practice.  I would see it as a natural extension of the CROW act and given restrictions similar to those made in Scotland and on Dartmoor it mught just work.  Yes there would be a minority of idiots, but from what I read on these forums they are out there doing it already, just as there are a minority of idiots abusing the bothy system.  It would be nice to know that a simple and peaceful passtime such as wild camping was not frowned upon by society in general and the law.
Carrying out an action whilst at the same time wishing it to remain 'illegal' so that more folks don't get the same idea is kindof a double standard.  Wild camping legislation has never had any impact on folks enjoyment of Dartmoor, so why not extend the right?



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  • Posted 3 years ago (28 January 2008 00:21)
Boneychest

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Posts: 108

Boneychest says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Couterpoint to most of the above...

Why make wild camping illegal in the first place? Our ancestors may have chosen to live in caves until they got clever enough to build shelters, both portable and fixed, but that's no reason to prohibit those who want to pitch their portable shelter in wild places. It's as stupid as the rule that says you can't walk around naked - it's how we all started out!

There are far too many useless rules around, let's knock this one off the statute book (and I bet Oliver Cromwell didn't give a stuff where he camped before knocking seven shades out of the landed gentry).

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  • Posted 3 years ago (28 January 2008 09:37)
GrahamThompson

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GrahamThompson says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Hi

Can I camp in your garden and bring all my mates with their dogs too? 

In scotland legal camping has created problems with lots of people camping on road sides.

The problem is the Scotland has lots more space and no one much cares about people camping as they don't see them. In England and Wales there are far fewer spaces where you can hide away.

Camping high on the mountains would make sense to be legal as that is tolerated anyway in many places.

However the big problem is that humans tend to do what they want anyway, despite the law. So encouraging wild camping, by making it legal, could just lead to more people camping in places that are not acceptable - which already happens such as people camping on footpaths in valley fields/valley parks around Ambleside and leaving all their beer cans littering the footpath and blocking access to walkers on the footpath in some cases.

In theory it should be fine for anyone to camp anywhere if people respected other people's rights. But humans are not quite that clever sadly. So my view is laws are required to control the few from disrespecting the rights of others.

The petition stated:"Currently without the landowners concent it is illegal to wild camp on the moors, mountains, National Parks and MOD land. It is time to give people the same rights as those given North of the Border in Scotland to allow them to wild camp in these places without threat of legal action."

If and it is a big IF this law could be written in a way that made it clear that it was ONLY on high ground above some defined height, then it could be ok. But for me for this to work and not have negative side effects I think the law would have to be defined very clearly. 

Also there is the problem that for example at StyHead in the Lakes, the amount of mess created is already leading to the land owners (National Trust) to monitor the situation. Basically there is often just too much poo being left by campers. If this is happening without it being legal, then how much worse would it be if it were legal and thereby encouraging campers to the same places.

I think leave it as it is to protect the wild camping that we have, rather than make it legal which may lead to uncontrolled wild camping and all its side effects. 


Just my view - although I am still thinking about it, so I am open to ideas.
GT 

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Graham Thompson Technical Editor Trail Magazine

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  • Posted 3 years ago (28 January 2008 11:12)
Boneychest

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Boneychest says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

"Can I camp in your garden and bring all my mates with their dogs too?"

Course not - my garden is only just big enough for 2 two-man tents, but If I owned half of Yorkshire...

Let's not confuse one law (camping) with others (littering and obstructing public rights of way). If all the rules were fully policed and offendors prosecuted, fewer would object to being done for littering than for 'leave no trace' camping on some remote hillside.

Incidentally, I won't be adding my name to the list because you should have consent to use privately owned land. I was just throwing in an alternate view.

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  • Posted 3 years ago (28 January 2008 14:14)
john

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Posts: 1779

john says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Wild camping in Scotland has stipulations attached to it. There are 'rules' in place and guidelines to protect the environment and the lands 'custodian' if any. Briefly, things like this I believe; distance from road or property, distance from watercourse, fires, visibility, noise, between times of and for how long. The conditions do not encourage or legalise gypsy's. As well as legalised wild camping and it's guidance, the countyside code and the CROW act might assist with clarification.

Farmer's and landowners have rights too, They have animals, crops and property to safeguard. Where access is allowed to walkers - conditions are in place as to what they can or can't or must or must not do. If a farmer or landowner observes or catches walkers behaving in a manner that damaged his property or crops, or endangers, injures or alarms his livestock etc etc - he has the right to ask you to leave his land or get the police to remove or prosecute you.

It's true that proper wild camping is usually done either high up or in more remote places, Roadside type camping is not legal in Scotland (even though I don't doubt it happens). Anyone in a situation where they need to camp at low level (not by description wild camping) - Could always find a bona fide campsite or knock on a farmers or land owners door and ask permission.

To legalise wild camping in most urban or semi-rural area's of England would be asking for trouble. Specific area's that warrant being classed as wilderness area's could be considered, although consideration should also include setting conditions and rules - education and of course the long term effect of increased use in sensitive or popular area's.

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  • Posted 3 years ago (28 January 2008 17:58)
johnhee

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Posts: 14

johnhee says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Here's some further food for thought on some of the points

ABUSE:

http://www.cameronmcneish.co.uk/blogs/212#comments

LEGAL POINTS

http://gayleybird.blogspot.com/2008/01/wild-camping-legalities.html

Apologies for this mode of posting, it's not my usual approach. In mitigation the articles consider the point in some detail (and let me get back to the forums)

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  • Posted 3 years ago (28 January 2008 19:08)
GrahamThompson

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Posts: 4839

GrahamThompson says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Hi

I'm not sure the size of the owner land is the issue. It is more to do with the type of owner land. There are small pockets of land all over the place and some are National Trust or conservation areas and so on. Others are peoples gardens who have lots of money and own a big field. I don't think the size is the issue. 

For me if a law were be issued for wild camping it would should only apply to high wild moorland and mountains, not valley areas, no matter how big or small the land. Up on high wild areas there is less likelyhood of the law being used for the wrong reasons. But at valley level, as has happened in Scotland, people will tend to camp everywhere as it is free and leave their mess for others to clear up.

My main fear is that once it is made legal on the mountains it will quickly lead to wild camping in more places than are acceptable, which already happens to some extent anyway.

I'm still on the fence on this one. So open to convincing.

GT

Graham Thompson Technical Editor Trail Magazine

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  • Posted 3 years ago (28 January 2008 19:08)
GrahamThompson

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GrahamThompson says:

Re: Legalise Wild Camping

Hi

I'm not sure the size of the owner land is the issue. It is more to do with the type of owner land. There are small pockets of land all over the place and some are National Trust or conservation areas and so on. Others are peoples gardens who have lots of money and own a big field. I don't think the size is the issue. 

For me if a law were be issued for wild camping it would should only apply to high wild moorland and mountains, not valley areas, no matter how big or small the land. Up on high wild areas there is less likelyhood of the law being used for the wrong reasons. But at valley level, as has happened in Scotland, people will tend to camp everywhere as it is free and leave their mess for others to clear up.

My main fear is that once it is made legal on the mountains it will quickly lead to wild camping in more places than are acceptable, which already happens to some extent anyway.

I'm still on the fence on this one. So open to convincing.

GT

Graham Thompson Technical Editor Trail Magazine

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  • Posted 3 years ago (28 January 2008 19:08)

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